Why Every Leader Should Take Improv
Welcome to the Health Marketing Collective, where strong leadership meets marketing excellence.
On today’s episode, we’re joined by Bernie Armada, professor at the University of St. Thomas and a leader at the intersection of storytelling, communication, and applied improvisation. Bernie shares his personal journey from crippling stage fright to expert communicator, revealing how improvisational techniques can transform not just individual confidence but the very nature of leadership and connection in our AI-driven world.
With host Sara Payne, Bernie dives into how improv uniquely cultivates better listeners and more authentic leaders, breaking down the conventions that often stifle true connection. The episode is packed with stories, practical insights, and powerful anecdotes from the classroom to the corporate boardroom and even the radiology suite on why every leader, regardless of background, can benefit from improv training.
We explore how the skills learned in improvisation are transferable far beyond performance, shaping the way executives, technical professionals, and communicators of all stripes build trust, foster collaboration, and bring a more human touch to their work in an increasingly automated world.
Key Takeaways
Improv as a Catalyst for Human Connection
Bernie Armada emphasizes that in an era where AI can automate much of our work, the ability to genuinely connect with others is more critical than ever. Improv teaches us to be fully present, attentive listeners, not just hearing words, but reading expressions, body language, and intent, laying a foundation for deep human connection and trust (10:37).
Leadership is About Listening, Not Judging
Improv skills empower leaders to step down from perceived pedestals and engage authentically with their teams. By “taking off the armor” sometimes literally, as Bernie Armada invites both students and professionals to remove their shoes, participants break down hierarchical barriers, build trust, and foster a sense of equality and community in the workplace (15:10).
Unlearning Professional Veneers for Authenticity
Professional success often comes with rigid habits and protective “veneers,” but improvisation helps participants “unlearn” these conventions. Through playful exercises, individuals rediscover their authentic voices, build confidence, and cultivate a more effective, approachable style of leadership and communication (21:27).
Improv Works for Everyone, Not Just ‘Natural’ Communicators
Whether you’re an engineer, physician, scientist, or executive, the skills developed through improvisation like mirroring, vulnerability, and in-the-moment responsiveness are universally beneficial. Bernie describes transformative experiences with highly technical professionals who, through applied improv, become more engaging speakers and leaders, able to connect with both peers and lay audiences (27:20).
Practical Advice: Risk, Storytelling, and Lifelong Growth
For those looking to become more engaging communicators, Bernie recommends taking practical steps such as reading Alan Alda’s “If I Understood You, Would I Have This Look on My Face?” and seeking out improv classes in your area. He highlights that the path to better communication is ongoing, shaped by risk-taking, sharing authentic stories, being comfortable with mistakes, and always striving to connect on a human level (42:25).
Thank you for joining the Health Marketing Collective, where strong leadership meets marketing excellence. The future of healthcare depends on it.
About Bernie Armada
Bernie Armada (Ph.D. Pennsylvania State University) is a Professor of Communication Studies at the University of St. Thomas in St. Paul, MN. A native of Brooklyn, NY, he attended the High School of Performing Arts (i.e., the “Fame” School), where he studied music. He uses his training in rhetorical studies and theatrical improvisation to help professionals improve their communication skills in industries such as education, banking, healthcare, software, and engineering. At the University of St. Thomas, he teaches courses in storytelling, improvisation, public speaking, argumentation, rhetorical criticism, and communication ethics.
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Sara Payne [00:00:09]:
Welcome back to the Health Marketing Collective, where strong leadership meets marketing excellence. My guest today believes every leader should take an improv class, not because they want to be funny and not because they want to be performers, but because improv can make us better listeners, communicators, storytellers, and leaders. And in a world where AI could write our emails, generate presentations, and help create endless amounts of content, the ability to connect with another human being is becoming more and not less important. We'll dig into what improvisation can teach us about storytelling, thought leadership, and human connection. Today's guest is Bernie Armada, a professor at the University of St. Thomas, my alma mater. Bernie's work focuses on the intersection of storytelling, communication, and applied improvisation. Through his work with students, executives, healthcare professionals, and technical experts, he's helping people become more engaging and effective communicators.
Sara Payne [00:01:12]:
Bernie, welcome to the show.
Bernie Armada [00:01:14]:
Sara, thank you very much for having me.
Sara Payne [00:01:17]:
Yeah, I'm, I'm really excited. I think this is going to be a really great topic to dig into today. I want to start with the story you shared with me about how you got into this field of study and line of work. You, of course, teach public speaking and storytelling. People might assume that you're just naturally good at this, but you shared with me that you actually struggled with crippling stage fright growing up. Tell us about that.
Bernie Armada [00:01:44]:
Yes. Yes, I would. It's fair to say, mathematically speaking, that it was most of my life. I still feel as if I'm emerging from that cocoon. Yeah, when I was a kid, my father asked me if I wanted to start piano lessons. I think he wanted me to take piano more than I did. So I was, yeah, okay. So I took piano lessons and then I auditioned.
Bernie Armada [00:02:11]:
I studied piano for about 2 or 3 years and I auditioned for a great, great Legendary school in New York City. I grew up in Brooklyn, New York. The High School of Performing Arts, which was on 46th Street and 6th Avenue right in the theater district, Midtown Manhattan. And I was lucky enough to get into this school. And some of your listeners who are old like me may remember it as the FAME School. And one of our requirements was to Perform for our class once a semester. And I wanted nothing more than to be a classical musician. I dreamed about being a classical pianist.
Bernie Armada [00:02:53]:
And every time I had to play for my class, I crumbled. And I mean every time. I'd get it to maybe a page of music and I just had it in my head that it was just terrifying. And That was the first realization for me that I had some issues with performing. And then as I went through to college, I decided I wanted— I was a music major. And then 2 years in, I was like, I heard about this communication professor there. He was the greatest educator I ever had. His name was Larry Rosenfield.
Bernie Armada [00:03:31]:
And I took one class with him and decided I wanted to add on a communication major. Well, In a lot of my classes, as you would expect, I'd have to deliver speeches. And the same thing happened. I'd get a few seconds in and I would just lose it. All of my communication abilities, everything that I had worked on, my face just became gaunt and lacking in energy. And I had to stop in the middle and it was just, it was a nightmare. And I just dreaded it. In fact, I avoided taking public speaking because it was not required of communication majors back at Queen's college where I got my undergraduate degree.
Bernie Armada [00:04:12]:
I avoided taking public speaking because I was so terrified of it. But still, I was very grade conscious because I knew that was an area that I could excel in. Just nose to the grindstone, work on those tests and all that stuff. So I was good enough to get into— to get a teaching assistantship in communication for graduate school at Kent State University for a master's program in communication. And I thought, this is great. Well, they literally handed me a public speaking textbook and said, you have 2 sections of public speaking that you are completely in charge of. You're not assisting another professor. These are your classes.
Bernie Armada [00:04:51]:
And there I was having to teach what I was terrified of and knowing that I didn't know anything about it. And so I got eaten up by the students. Absolutely eaten up because they saw how scared I was. So I took that, paid my dues through that. Then I went to Penn State University for a PhD program in communication. What made me continue with it, I don't know, because they were some of the— literally some of the worst experiences of my life. Then I got the job at the University of St. Thomas, moved out here to Minnesota, and things steadily got better.
Bernie Armada [00:05:26]:
They still were not where I wanted them to be, But in my free time, I always loved comedy. I knew internally that I had something performative and that I wanted to be in front of people and that I wanted to be accepted by people. I wanted people to see the real me. It was really frustrating. I remember walking after classes, just beating myself up saying, they only know a robotic lecturer. They don't know the 3-dimensional Bernie Armada. And, uh, so I took an improv class because I just wanted to have some fun and I wanted to try it and I was terrified and I thought, let's try it. And, uh, the, the, after I took my first class, I got in my car and I called my wife who is in, uh, the software industry and she's, she's a, you know, more of a, more of a corporate.
Sara Payne [00:06:20]:
Yeah.
Bernie Armada [00:06:20]:
Professional. And I said, Gina, you need to take an improv class. Everyone needs to take an improv class because it is all about communication. And it's all— it's just a— there were so many parallels between what I had studied, what I had been afraid of, what I was improving on. Improv was kind of like a fast track to developing your communication skills. And so that combined with teaching, I took an improv, a level 1 improv class, then I took a level 2, and I made friends, and we were all kind of in a cohort. So I kept going all through the levels that were offered at the school, Brave New Workshop. And then I started performing.
Bernie Armada [00:07:10]:
And it was, it was just like a It's just been a constant ascension away from the closet that I was in.
Sara Payne [00:07:22]:
Yeah.
Bernie Armada [00:07:24]:
And I really don't feel that I'm at the peak yet. In terms of getting over nervousness and being a better communicator, it's just a continual work in progress. I think that's true of really anybody who wants to be a great communicator. You're always a work in progress because every communication situation provides something, offers something new in which you could freeze up, you can misspeak, you can offend somebody, all kinds of things can come up. So it never ends. But for me, it was really a dramatic journey and a dramatic transformation. And so when I teach public speaking and improv and anything like that, I always tell my students, look, nobody I doubt that anybody in this class had it worse than me. And they don't believe me.
Bernie Armada [00:08:16]:
And people who— friends I've made here in Minnesota who know like the second half of who I am don't believe that I was so crippled. They just don't believe it. And it's 100% true. And, you know, sometimes it does still kick in. It's— that is humbling. That is really humbling when it does kick in.
Sara Payne [00:08:35]:
Yeah, I mean, it's a fairly common thing to get nervous like that when people are in front of a group, in front of a crowd. I mean, people can be amazing one-to-one communicators and just absolutely freeze up when they get in front of a group. They could be really polished leaders. And again, same thing. You know, I guess lucky us that you were a glutton for punishment and stuck with it, right?
Bernie Armada [00:08:59]:
Yes.
Sara Payne [00:08:59]:
Because we're here to benefit. We're here to benefit from it in this conversation today. And, you know, fascinating, right, that you went from student on this to professor. Again, perhaps out of just, you know, sheer punishment to yourself too. Um, but no, I mean, also how empowering that must have been for you. I mean, clearly you were motivated. You were motivated. You saw that there was a different pathway and you were motivated to, to study it, learn it, get better.
Sara Payne [00:09:29]:
Um, I want to talk a little bit about, we're going to unpack, you know, sort of what it was about improv that changed.
Bernie Armada [00:09:37]:
Yeah.
Sara Payne [00:09:38]:
that for you. But I want to go back to your call to your wife about you need to take an improv class and your view that every leader should take an improv class. How does improv teach us to be a better leader?
Bernie Armada [00:09:58]:
There are so many ways. But one of the central ways is that it teaches us to be more attentive listeners to the people around us. And when I say listen, I mean not only with your ears, but also with your eyes, that you are, you are, you're not just hearing what people say, you are tuned into how they are saying it, you're tuned into their body language, you are listening with your full range of capacities. To understand whether a person feels as if you are hearing them, they are being heard by you. And to be a leader is to know your people. You know, there are authoritarian leaders who don't really care much about their people. You could be that kind of leader, in which case you won't need an improv class. But in a lot of, it seems to me, in most of our workplaces where we are working long-term with people, the greater sense of connectedness among people, whether they are leaders or followers, if you will, or second-level leaders, tertiary leaders, whatever they are, The most important thing that I believe in communication is that sense of connection among people in which they feel as if they are together part of a team.
Bernie Armada [00:11:39]:
You might be the leader, and I grant that to you as the one at the helm, but I also need to feel valued And that you value me as part of your team. And when I grant you that and you grant me my role, the sense of collaboration, the sense of commitment to a project, a company, whatever it may be, goes up exponentially. If I feel disaffected and I feel disconnected from you as a leader, that you don't even know who I am, That doesn't make me feel as committed as I can to what I'm doing. So the president of the University of St. Thomas, his name is Rob Fisher. Every time I send that guy an email— I'm one of 500 faculty— he responds.
Sara Payne [00:12:41]:
Wow.
Bernie Armada [00:12:41]:
And he responds in a personal way. And He sees me on campus and he knows who I am.
Sara Payne [00:12:47]:
Yeah, I mean, clearly he prioritizes that, right? Like, he makes an effort.
Bernie Armada [00:12:52]:
And it's— I hold him up as an example many times. I just think he's really exceptional with regard to his communication skills.
Sara Payne [00:13:02]:
So what is it about improv and the sort of the structure, if you will, of of improv that builds this collaboration, commitment, connectedness, right? You made a decision in your work as an educator, as a professor, to take what you learned and apply it to a syllabus, like a curriculum, right?
Bernie Armada [00:13:37]:
Yeah.
Sara Payne [00:13:37]:
You brought it into the classroom because you believe so much in it.
Bernie Armada [00:13:41]:
Yeah.
Sara Payne [00:13:41]:
What is it about that structure? Like, what kind of break it down for us in terms of like what skills are actually being developed and a little bit of like the how they're being developed, right? Because there's a— we in improv, there's the yes and, right? Like you're going to throw out a topic and I have to build on it. There has to be a level of trust, right, that we're going to like catch each other. Yeah, right. I mean, and like it— there's something in there, but, but obviously you're the expert on this and I'm curious. What it is about that structure that builds that collaboration and commitment and connectedness.
Bernie Armada [00:14:15]:
First, I think first and foremost, it is the great equalizer. And a leader must be comfortable enough to— not that they think of themselves or are on a pedestal, but they need to be at the same level as As their employees. And this is what a lot of professionals are reluctant to do. It's a very new and for many people unsettling experience because they have gotten where they are based on some many excellent skills that in some ways have nothing to do with communication.
Sara Payne [00:15:00]:
Sure.
Bernie Armada [00:15:01]:
And so, When I ask people, when I arrange participants in a circle, and these participants may be students, they may be professionals in the corporate world, I also invite them to take off their shoes.
Sara Payne [00:15:17]:
I always take off my shoes.
Bernie Armada [00:15:18]:
Interesting. I take off my shoes and I invite them to take off their shoes. I did that when I was a few levels into my improv training. whenever we'd get up on stage, I'd take off my shoes and it always helped me to literally feel more grounded. Hmm. You take off your shoes, you're taking off part of your armor, you know? And so when you do improv and when I have people participate in games, group games, I'm asking them to make sounds that they have never made. They have in life, but they haven't— they have in life, of course, but they haven't made these sounds in front of other people. Right.
Bernie Armada [00:16:04]:
And so, and they've made— I asked them to make faces that they have not made in front of the people around them. And if you have a certain decorum that has characterized your workplace, or if, you know, this is not professional and—
Sara Payne [00:16:19]:
Mm-hmm.
Bernie Armada [00:16:21]:
You know, so doing games first, because that's where I start for quite a while, is having people just do games. It's not scenes or anything like that, because scenes can be really scary because it's just spotlighting.
Sara Payne [00:16:35]:
Yeah, sure.
Bernie Armada [00:16:35]:
So we do a lot of group work together where they see me be a goofball, they see me emote, and then they are encouraged gradually. Some people stepped right up and it was like, thank you for giving me permission to do this. Others are more reluctant to do it. And so what I've observed is that it's the great equalizer. Nobody cares what your title is. What they do care is, are you willing to commit to the goofiness that I'm inviting you to commit to?
Sara Payne [00:17:09]:
Yeah.
Bernie Armada [00:17:09]:
And it's always an invitation. It's not a command. They can choose to hide and Have their voice get small, and— but eventually they become uncorked, which is my favorite thing to see, is to watch people just become spontaneous and play.
Sara Payne [00:17:33]:
Yeah.
Bernie Armada [00:17:34]:
Um, so when you have that, when you have that leveled playing field, you've gone through something together as a group. That is where the connections begin because then they make references in the office. They make references to some of the games and the goofy code word that, you know, the goofy words and mannerisms that are part of their in-group, right? So what you're doing with improv is forging a coded language and way of communicating among those select few people who happen to be in a workshop or an experience like that. That is the groundwork for trust and community and connection.
Sara Payne [00:18:16]:
100%. Yeah. And it's really fascinating because I'm hearing a couple of things. One, there is this aspect of leveling the playing field, right? Like, you're going to— everyone's equal here, right? We're all committed to this equally. But there's this other piece which is Taking off that, and maybe, maybe it's together, maybe they're not separate, it's like taking off this veneer, right, that we've— the, the, the, the world, so to speak, the professional community has taught us that we have to play this certain part, right? And so you—
Bernie Armada [00:18:53]:
That's right.
Sara Payne [00:18:54]:
Talk a certain way, and you dress a certain way, and you, you know, stylistically need to do certain things to command a room and be a leader. And the reality is that, is that some of that isn't serving us well. when it comes to really connecting with people as a leader and as a storyteller. Um, and now we're sort of needing to— improv could help us unlearn some of that, if you will, and, and allow us to step back into what we were originally as more of this, you know, authentic and playful, uh, human being. And, and what I'm hearing you say is that, you know, you talked about being uncorked, right? And, and yes, you are. building that coded language within that group of students that's coming back week to week, you know, throughout an entire semester. But what I'm hearing you say is that they then are learning those skills. They are sort of hardwiring some of those skills naturally into their go-forward that's transferable outside of the classroom, outside of that group where you've established that coded language.
Bernie Armada [00:19:57]:
That's right.
Sara Payne [00:19:58]:
Now they can go back out and stand in front of their team or be a spokesperson for a marketing campaign and be better for it because some of that now is just, it's more hardwired back into who they are.
Bernie Armada [00:20:11]:
That is exactly right, Sara. That's a great— I love the word unlearn because that is so true is you do have to unlearn all of the social conventions that have gotten people where they are, frankly. Yeah.
Sara Payne [00:20:29]:
Yeah.
Bernie Armada [00:20:31]:
And what I always tell my students toward the end of the semester, I'm like, okay, now this is up to you, because they buy in so passionately. I can't emphasize this enough that my students at least buy in so passionately because I have them for 7 weeks, in some cases 14 weeks. And I tell them, now it's up to you to go out And be practitioners of this to light up the corners of your workspaces, your lives. It doesn't have to be your workspaces. Some of you are gonna have kids before you know it, and you have an antsy kid at a restaurant, you've got all these tools you can just pull out of your back pocket like a Swiss Army knife and entertain them, pass the time. You can be a hit at parties and all that stuff. I mean, it just is so Versatile. The challenge is bringing it into workspaces, or I would say 9-to-5 corporate workspaces.
Bernie Armada [00:21:31]:
I tell them, have courage, be committed to that point of view the same way that I've trained you to be committed to a point of view in a scene with a partner. Believe in it because you have experienced it firsthand. You've experienced the magic of it firsthand in here. Don't let this be the end of your training. Now it's time to go out and do that in other places.
Sara Payne [00:21:56]:
Well, I think there was another potential myth here that like, oh, okay, so you're in the comms department, right? You're getting a lot of students that would be more naturally inclined to succeed in doing this kind of speaking and work. But you've worked with a lot of really brilliant people who also fall way outside of that, you know, more, if you will, stereotypical. You've worked with engineers, physicians, scientists, very incredibly accomplished professionals, but people who are not naturally— I'm generalizing here— but gonna come by— they're very technical in nature.
Bernie Armada [00:22:41]:
Yeah.
Sara Payne [00:22:41]:
Right? And so, they're going to default to information and facts and data potentially over connection. Whereas communicators and maybe salespeople might go more in the other direction. What I'd love for you to elaborate a little bit on sort of teaching these people who are incredibly more sort of scientific and technical in nature.
Bernie Armada [00:23:08]:
Mm-hmm.
Sara Payne [00:23:09]:
And how do you help them? Because many, many executives and many scientific people will default to that information rather than connection. So how do you help them unlearn that?
Bernie Armada [00:23:24]:
The beauty of improv lies in its experiential nature. You have to do improv. You can't just talk about it theoretically. Right. And many of these people who you're talking about have climbed the ladder and been extremely successful because they have done certain things that are technical in their particular areas, but they've also spent an awful lot of time in their heads. They have gotten advanced degrees.
Sara Payne [00:23:58]:
Yeah.
Bernie Armada [00:23:59]:
They have just succeeded in large part because of their expertise in a particular area that hasn't necessarily required them to be better at communicating. The house hasn't been burning for them to have to learn it. I would argue that with artificial intelligence, the house is now burning and they need to really make communication skills a priority. But how do I get them? So the great thing is, because of its experiential nature, again, what I do with those professionals is not all that different than what I do with 18, 19, 20-year-olds.
Sara Payne [00:24:43]:
Yeah.
Bernie Armada [00:24:44]:
I, I'm dressed more professionally. I might not take my shoes off. But also I have.
Sara Payne [00:24:56]:
I love that.
Bernie Armada [00:24:57]:
Either way, you know, because I have to set an example of, yes, I'm a professional as well, just like you, but I'm also a human being just like you. And when I invite them to do a hawk, come hawk, or whatever it is, what I'm really doing is is I'm inviting them to connect to who they are as human beings. And when they do that, it takes time. Well, like I said, for some people it takes more time than others to get comfortable. It's not like they just jump right in like, oh, this is what I've needed all my life is for somebody to give me permission to be a child. Where have you been? A lot of people don't want that. They're afraid of that.
Sara Payne [00:25:44]:
Yeah.
Bernie Armada [00:25:44]:
They are confused by it because, you know, and there's many of my colleagues as professors, you know, you spend your time in your head and publishing essays that are all about what's in your head, getting it out on paper. You don't deal with the visceralness of connecting with people. So people have gotten very far with that. And so when I can break through to them through doing some of the very same games that I do with students, I am able to convince them. It doesn't even take a lot because it's not anything special that I'm doing. The practice of applied improvisation convinces them that it is transferable, that what they're doing, even though they're making funny sounds and things like that, the bottom line is connection. Mm-hmm. The bottom line is relationships with people.
Bernie Armada [00:26:40]:
So if I am a technical professional and I'm overloading my presentation with technical talk and I lose sight because I haven't been, it's not the convention. If I lose sight of the fact that I'm speaking to human beings, some of whom haven't gotten a good night's sleep, some of whom have to run to the bathroom, but they don't want to, you know, some of whom are looking at your tie, others who are completely tuned in to the facts that you are proffering to them. But training these professionals with some of the improv skills convinces them that these skills are transferable and that if people are tuning out and they're not paying attention, you might as well just be reading from a dictionary. You're wasting your time in the here and now. So the hardest thing is to, as a speaker, as a communicator, is to keep your audience in the here and now, even if your audience is of one, an interviewer for a job. And so the greatest exercise, one of the greatest exercises that I do is something that every improviser and Applied improvisation practitioner has done is a mirroring game where 2 people are paired off. A is responsible for leading, so they have to move silently. B has to follow their movements.
Bernie Armada [00:28:11]:
They'll get on the floor and do push-ups, and they're going at different rates. I'll stop the whole workshop. I'll say, remember, this is a mirror, so your movement must be the same, as much as you can do it, as your partner. You've got to slow it down. You've got to change what you do so that they can follow you. If they can't follow you, then you are moving at the speed of you, not at the speed of them. And that is an incredibly powerful communication exercise. Because how do— what does that mean in translation? Well, if I'm speaking at the speed of me and I'm speaking with my jargon.
Sara Payne [00:28:52]:
Right.
Bernie Armada [00:28:53]:
I'm an engineer who's speaking to people at a city council meeting, just everyday citizens, and I'm speaking with my own jargon and they don't know what I'm saying, they can't follow what I'm saying, I might as well just stop talking. You have to speak for them, not for yourself. And I think that's the mistake that so many professionals make. I've got this, I've got 25 PowerPoint slides in 15 minutes, line after line on each slide. So I've got all the content here. I got to make sure I have all this content, but I'm doing that for me. I'm using it as a note card, a series of note cards on steroids to remind me of where I am.
Sara Payne [00:29:35]:
Right.
Bernie Armada [00:29:35]:
They can't hear you and read all that information. We know this factually. Human beings can't. follow both media, both channels of communication at the same time. So what you're saying in large part is pointless to most of those people in, in your audience. And if you understand, well, what's gonna, what's gonna get them tuned in again? Less is more. Keep it simple.
Sara Payne [00:30:04]:
Yes.
Bernie Armada [00:30:07]:
Direct, do an aside where you tell a story, incorporate story. If you're going to build anything into PowerPoint, for sure, you should build in short stories about yourself and about their common experience because that's where people lean in, especially if they're authentic stories, real stories that disclose some vulnerability. I've seen this time and time again. Students will, and practitioners will tell stories that are surface level. And then I'll say, I need you to take a bit more. I need you to share a bit more of yourself in this story. And when they do that, you almost literally can feel and see the audience lean in.
Sara Payne [00:30:50]:
Yes.
Bernie Armada [00:30:52]:
This is where they feel as if they are bearing witness to something special.
Sara Payne [00:31:00]:
Yeah.
Bernie Armada [00:31:00]:
Because it is special. It's unique to that person. Why do we need a human being to just spew content at us? Anybody can do that. You don't need a person. AI can read that in a computerized voice, or for all I know now, they can do it in a warm, friendly voice. But the authenticity comes from the person, and that's never going to change as long as there are human beings. Artificial intelligence is not going to be able to replace the connection that we need in life with other human beings. There's just nothing that can replace that.
Sara Payne [00:31:39]:
Yeah, totally agree. Totally agree. You know, and many of our listeners are responsible for brand storytelling, thought leadership, and You know, in theory, we all know this. We know these things. We know the importance of less is more and bringing humanity into a message.
Bernie Armada [00:31:59]:
We do.
Sara Payne [00:32:01]:
The ability to execute that consistently, not only across branded content that maybe the marketing or comms team oversees, but then consistently across all of the messengers, right? The executives, the spokespeople, et cetera, I think is sometimes where that tends to fall apart. And when you were talking earlier about your 25-slide PowerPoint with the note cards and all the text and everything, the MO is, I'm going to walk into the room and I'm going to tell you how smart and competent I am so that you want to hire me, right?
Bernie Armada [00:32:38]:
Yeah.
Sara Payne [00:32:39]:
But when in reality, we need to be thinking about, what does this person need and want from me? And how do I connect with them at the level that they need me to connect with them and vice versa? Right?
Bernie Armada [00:32:57]:
Right. Yeah.
Sara Payne [00:33:00]:
And what is something about that most people believe about communication that, that you just think is, is false or completely wrong?
Bernie Armada [00:33:11]:
Like the way that we think about it is The bottom line, which is not you stand up there and you just go through the motions of a speech, but that you are doing it to connect with people, that that is what matters most. This is the hardest thing I have with students is telling them, I actually want less content from you. I tell them, you need to find a balance. And I wonder if Lauren would remember this, but a balance between factual content, and sexy stuff. And all the students giggle like, oh, sexy stuff, that's sexual. I'm like, it's not. No, I don't mean sexual stuff. I mean the sexy human interest stuff.
Sara Payne [00:33:50]:
Right.
Bernie Armada [00:33:51]:
The stuff that people say, ooh, pictures. Ooh, a joke. Ooh, a personal story. Ooh, a disclosure that you fought a terminal illness or that you lost somebody to a tragedy or something human. That is, for lack of a better term, sexy. That is the stuff that makes people lean in and feel as if they're bearing witness to something real as opposed to the plastic. So again, I don't know if this answers your question, but the most What people don't get is how much more communication is than just wagging your tongue and dressing nicely and having a PowerPoint.
Sara Payne [00:34:47]:
Yeah.
Bernie Armada [00:34:47]:
And it's not easy to find the pathways to connecting with people. It's not like, oh, okay, now I know that. Just connect with people. That involves Risk. It involves critical thinking.
Sara Payne [00:35:00]:
Yes.
Bernie Armada [00:35:00]:
It involves critical thinking, like thinking outside of your own experience. That's what critical thinking is, is how do I see this in a way that is not necessarily in my own shoes? What would these people in front of me appreciate if I were to frame it in a way that is more comprehensible or more delightful or something that is for them rather than for me. That's the biggest—
Sara Payne [00:35:28]:
Yes.
Bernie Armada [00:35:28]:
Thing is that people assume that it's easy and that it's not necessary. You know, communication is not in our core requirement at the university. And I think that's really a miss, especially now in the age of AI, a huge miss that communication is not a core requirement for all students. So I don't know if that answers your question, but that is the biggest one, is that people think that they don't need training in it.
Sara Payne [00:35:54]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I know you actually coach all of the folks that give speeches at graduation at the university. You coach the highest scholars when they have to give their big presentations to NASA or the Mayo Clinic. I mean, that's a big deal. Right. And, and the work that you're doing has, has made an impact, as they've shared with you, on their ability to perform in those high-pressure situations. I would love to end this conversation today with, with a little bit more practical advice.
Sara Payne [00:36:32]:
You've, you've given some already. Um, I'd love selfishly to add a couple more nuggets in here as we, as we close this out. If someone listening wants to become a more engaging communicator, where should they start? Aside from signing up for your class, of course.
Bernie Armada [00:36:48]:
Man, I wish I could. Yeah, I wish I could get the whole world to sign up for my class, honestly, because it's such a joy to teach and to watch the transformation. It really is. Funny you should ask. The first place I would go is with this book by none other than Alan Alda, of all people. Alan Alda, your listeners may recall or not, is a great actor who was— his heyday was more in the '70s, '80s, and '90s. He was the star of M*A*S*H, a television series called M*A*S*H. Anyway, a few years back, he wrote this book, If I Understood You, Would I Have This Look on My Face? And it's amazing in its simplicity, in its wisdom, and in its practical examples, as well as practical activities in the book.
Bernie Armada [00:37:51]:
He is somebody who obviously was extremely successful as an actor, but also as an improviser. And also as somebody who was the host of a science documentary for years. And he learned a lot about science and communication, and that's where it really kind of dawned on him that scientists could really benefit from this. So I likely would not have created this course without Alan Alda's book. But that's the first place. If somebody wants to begin scratching the surface and they're not quite ready to take an improv class, I would go and get that book. It's the one book I've assigned in my 35 years of teaching that students don't want to sell back.
Sara Payne [00:38:41]:
Wow.
Bernie Armada [00:38:42]:
And when we switch to another book, because it can only take us, you know, it's 21 chapters, we finish those 21 chapters, they want more from Alan Alda. Everything is a letdown after that. They love that book so much. So I highly recommend that book. The second thing, of course, is take the risk and look for an improv class or look for an improv workshop. I love coming into organizations and doing that kind of training with people. The best place to start is simply by doing, and it involves a certain degree of risk. be able to do that.
Bernie Armada [00:39:20]:
I'm not talking about the people who have a theater bone in their body. I'm talking about the ones who I love working with the most are not the big outgoing theater people. It's the ones who have not done anything like this before because I get to watch them blossom and realize a part of themselves that they always had. They always had it because if you're human, you have it.
Sara Payne [00:39:47]:
Yeah.
Bernie Armada [00:39:48]:
But for whatever reasons— family structure, fulfilling expectations in academics, in your profession— a lot of that voice, which is the root of connectivity, gets squelched and stifled, and I love reanimating that in people.
Sara Payne [00:40:11]:
So cool. I'd love to end on one more anecdote. You had shared that a radiologist, of all people, has audited your class twice. Not once, but twice. Tell everyone what he said to you about the impact that your class has had on him.
Bernie Armada [00:40:31]:
Well, he's a great guy, man. That has nothing to do with my— the impact of my class, but I just have to say he's a great guy. His name is Paul Carlin. Uh, he's a radiologist. Here in the Twin Cities. And he's— he has said this many times in class that these improv classes that he's taken with me have changed his life. They have changed the way he communicates everywhere, but most notably in the workplace. It's made him a better listener.
Bernie Armada [00:41:05]:
It's made him more tuned into the power of teamwork and the power of expressing yourself to be heard and understood by your listeners rather than just expressing yourself because you know you need to express yourself. He has just credited it with changing what he's done in the workplace. He said it's made him a better leader, a better communicator with patients and coworkers.
Sara Payne [00:41:46]:
I love that story.
Bernie Armada [00:41:47]:
It's just been really a gift to have a professional, somebody in the world who could easily just rest on his ego of what he's accomplished.
Sara Payne [00:42:01]:
Right.
Bernie Armada [00:42:01]:
And I have to say, whenever he speaks in class, you can feel all of the kids leaning in because they know he's a doctor and they, you know, it's just what we tend to do is give all the credence to people with a medical degree, you know. And fortunately, he is a great guy and he's very humble and he comes in like a child, like with the humility of a child, ready to play, ready to perform, ready to make mistakes. And that's another thing here at the tail end of this whole thing is that you've got to be okay with making mistakes. And if you're a PhD or an MD, you haven't made— you've got— of course, we all make mistakes, but you've gotten very comfortable with, at some point, achieving perfection, whether it's A's or awards and accolades and things like that.
Sara Payne [00:42:51]:
Right.
Bernie Armada [00:42:51]:
And improv, you are just bound to fail. And it just keeps you humble.
Sara Payne [00:42:56]:
It's a beautiful thing. What a great story. Thank you for sharing that. And what a great endorsement of this work that you're doing and the impact that it's having out there in the world, and hopefully great inspiration for our audience to want to do some of it themselves. Bernie, thank you for joining us. And where can people learn more about your work or get in touch with you?
Bernie Armada [00:43:20]:
I've got a LinkedIn page, Bernie Armada. That's probably the best place to get me if you want to reach out. Or also my email is bjarmada@stthomas.edu. Shoot me an email, be happy to talk with you.
Sara Payne [00:43:41]:
Fantastic. Thanks again for being here.
Bernie Armada [00:43:43]:
Sara, thank you for having me. What a great pleasure it is to be here with you. Thanks.
Sara Payne [00:43:48]:
Likewise. Likewise. Thanks for joining the Health Marketing Collective, where strong leadership meets marketing excellence, because the future of healthcare depends on it. We'll see you next time.
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